Transcript
[0:04] Dear respected teacher, dear beloved
[0:07] community,
[0:09] today is the 26th
[0:12] of June in the year 2025.
[0:15] We're in the upper hamlet of Plum
[0:17] Village on the last
[0:21] day of our retreat for scientists.
[0:31] Um,
[0:35] it feels
[0:38] very nice to be sitting here
[0:42] and I hope and trust that it feels as
[0:47] pleasant for you as it does for me.
[0:50] Um, I
[0:53] look around the hall and I see so many
[0:56] familiar faces,
[0:58] so many friends. And um, I remember last
[1:03] summer, I think it was in August, um,
[1:06] some of us were invited to join the mind
[1:09] and life Europe summer research
[1:12] institute
[1:14] uh, in Pomaya in Italy. And uh there's
[1:18] some friends here from there. And on the
[1:22] last day uh there was a circle of kind
[1:25] of I can't remember what the idea was
[1:28] but it was sort of like inspirations,
[1:30] ideas, collaborations and I think I put
[1:33] up my hand and and sort of said would
[1:36] anybody be interested in having a
[1:38] retreat for scientists in Plum Village?
[1:42] Um
[1:43] and there was uh some enthusiasm.
[1:47] So we kind of launched into this whilst
[1:50] some there's some part of me that that
[1:52] was thinking I actually can't do this.
[1:56] There's no way I can you know fit this
[1:58] in. I can't plan it all. I can't figure
[2:01] it out. All the logistics. And so um
[2:07] and that was true.
[2:09] Uh and yet we're here. So, how did it
[2:11] happen?
[2:13] Because I didn't have to do it alone.
[2:16] Um so I really want to to kind of just
[2:20] name the sometimes visible sometimes
[2:23] less visible presence of so many others
[2:26] like the the organizing team a large
[2:29] organizing team of brothers and sisters
[2:31] um from upper and lower hamlet um whom
[2:35] you know many many times
[2:39] big shout out to them uh many many times
[2:42] I said I can't deal with this can you
[2:45] help me and then
[2:46] got it and and they did got it because
[2:50] otherwise we also wouldn't be here and
[2:54] uh and many others. Joanna also has been
[2:57] amazing uh indehaticable
[3:00] uh many many times I also said to her I
[3:03] can't deal with this can you help me and
[3:04] she said got it
[3:07] and um and Ellie and as well uh helping
[3:11] so much uh with the pre and post surveys
[3:16] um which which I hope many of you will
[3:19] have seen and and filled in and our
[3:21] wonderful panelists
[3:24] um who were also very compassionate when
[3:26] I didn't answer their emails and when I
[3:29] didn't tell them what the panels were
[3:30] about and and uh and so on and so forth
[3:36] and probably many many others that I'm
[3:38] forgetting.
[3:40] I also just want to name the uh the
[3:43] presence sometimes visible sometimes
[3:45] less visible of all the volunteers
[3:48] helping in so many ways
[3:51] especially our cooking volunteers
[3:54] came somewhat at the last minute and and
[3:56] uh I know have been providing amazing
[4:00] uh food for everyone to enjoy and they
[4:03] and they do it joyfully every time I go
[4:06] past the kitchen you know they're all
[4:08] smiling in and then um and all of our
[4:13] brothers and sisters who are also
[4:15] helping in so many ways preparing the
[4:17] hamlet so beautifully. Uh all the grass
[4:21] was cut and everything was cleaned and
[4:24] prepared and all the flower beds were
[4:27] made beautiful and uh the toilets and
[4:30] rooms are cleaned and the beds made and
[4:32] and I know for the sisters too in lower
[4:34] hamlet
[4:36] and um and and also our brothers and
[4:39] sisters are cooking cleaning throughout
[4:42] the retreat
[4:45] and uh yeah so it's really a a
[4:49] collective manifestation this retreat.
[4:51] It's only possible thanks to everyone
[4:55] working together
[4:57] and that's a very beautiful thing
[5:02] and really it only happens because of
[5:04] all of you
[5:06] right if nobody registered
[5:09] then we would be sitting here kind of
[5:12] okay
[5:15] let's talk about science
[5:18] you know we talking talking to ourselves
[5:20] Um
[5:23] and and really yeah I mean the the kind
[5:26] of
[5:29] this moment of sitting here with you all
[5:32] is also because you all came.
[5:35] Um
[5:37] so thank you for your trust. Thank you
[5:39] for your stepping into the partially
[5:43] known partially unknown phenomenon of
[5:46] this week.
[5:49] And uh yeah,
[5:54] it's a it's a beautiful celebration and
[5:56] realization of many many dreams
[5:59] um of many people maybe all our dreams.
[6:04] We've all dreamed of this in one way or
[6:07] another.
[6:10] So today, um,
[6:14] I'm going to do my best to respond to
[6:16] some
[6:19] wishes that have been been expressed.
[6:24] And uh, just to give you an idea,
[6:30] I was asked by several people
[6:36] to uh,
[6:39] to explain the ultimate nature of
[6:41] reality.
[6:44] So, you know, no biggie. It's like,
[6:50] okay, what what what should I do after
[6:52] that?
[6:55] So, then I had another request um
[6:57] yesterday. So, oh, can you also do
[6:59] nonself? Like, okay, sure, let's do
[7:04] that.
[7:10] I mean, really,
[7:15] I'm kind of serious. Like, do you really
[7:18] expect me to tell you?
[7:22] Like, really?
[7:24] I had a yes. I I see a no. I see some
[7:28] yes. It's a serious question.
[7:33] Yes. You think yes. How many How many
[7:35] yeses? Put up your hand.
[7:37] You got a good number of yeses.
[7:40] [Music]
[7:43] That's the problem.
[7:53] But it's um
[7:56] you when I first came to Plum Village 26
[8:00] years ago,
[8:03] I also had this wish very strongly. Um
[8:07] and I really did expect Tai to tell me.
[8:11] I really did.
[8:14] And then Tai kept talking about being
[8:16] aware of your feet,
[8:18] being aware of the breath.
[8:22] feeling your uh looking into your
[8:25] relationship with your mother, with your
[8:27] father.
[8:30] It's so annoying. Like just
[8:34] why do we have to waste our time
[8:37] doing that? I want you I want you to
[8:39] tell me the ultimate nature of reality.
[8:47] I want you to tell me
[8:52] I want you to tell me something that
[8:54] can't be said.
[8:58] And it's but it's really interesting
[8:59] because I grew up with the idea um I'm
[9:01] you know I read as probably many of you
[9:03] did Stephen Steven Hawkings and and many
[9:07] others and there it's all like about the
[9:08] search for the the guts the grand
[9:12] unified theories right or the toes
[9:15] theories of everything TOE
[9:19] and I really thought that's what we were
[9:21] at some point sooner or later many
[9:23] physicists have promised this and some
[9:24] of them some of them are still promising
[9:26] it that we're going to have a ground
[9:27] unified theory or a theory of everything
[9:30] and I thought that is the kind of uh
[9:33] form that an ultimate understanding
[9:36] should take
[9:38] right theoretical
[9:42] or even in the realm of um philosophy or
[9:46] spirituality or religion I was expecting
[9:48] an explanation
[9:54] a description a form of words,
[10:00] right? Are are you getting this?
[10:03] You see the problem?
[10:06] We want to replace the real with the
[10:10] abstract.
[10:11] And we think that will help. We think
[10:14] that will solve it. If I could just
[10:17] understand, if you could just tell me.
[10:24] So we we really have to look at that
[10:28] and we really have to allow ourselves to
[10:31] let go of that wish
[10:38] because there whatever is said is less
[10:45] is less than this. How can I say
[10:49] this? The the the
[10:52] stuff the the texture of experience
[10:57] whatever you say about it is a
[10:58] compression is a a lossy compression.
[11:04] So we we need to be very careful of
[11:07] theory theories and concepts and
[11:10] descriptions and language in general.
[11:12] Beware the map.
[11:15] I've said it before and I'm going to
[11:17] keep saying it because we're addicted,
[11:23] okay?
[11:25] So, I'm not going to tell you.
[11:31] And and yet we are in this sort of
[11:34] strange moment in our history where my
[11:36] in my
[11:38] I get the sense that
[11:41] um
[11:43] there's a feeling that kind of reality
[11:45] is up for grabs a little bit. There are
[11:47] many many kind of competing
[11:50] descriptions or ways of understanding
[11:52] reality. And just to name a few, of
[11:55] course we have physicalism or scientific
[11:57] materialism, right? The idea that there
[11:59] is an external physical universe made of
[12:02] matter,
[12:04] whatever that is, right? Which matter
[12:07] and energy which obey physical laws um
[12:10] which are the same everywhere throughout
[12:12] time and space except perhaps in the
[12:15] early moments of the big bang
[12:18] and da you know the rest. And um so
[12:22] that's a
[12:24] an account. It's an account which does
[12:27] not
[12:29] mention consciousness.
[12:32] To me, that's that's a bit of a problem,
[12:34] right? If we're trying to have a theory
[12:35] of everything, a description of
[12:37] everything, of the nature of reality,
[12:39] this is a pretty glaring emission.
[12:44] So, I don't know if you've noticed, but
[12:47] everything,
[12:51] and I mean everything,
[12:54] everything that we experience
[12:58] about this so-called objective external
[13:01] world is
[13:04] an experience.
[13:12] I don't know whether that's obvious.
[13:18] So, so I
[13:20] how do you take consciousness out of
[13:22] that? I mean just look at what you are
[13:24] looking at now. The field of your
[13:26] experience now what you are seeing,
[13:29] hearing,
[13:30] feeling, maybe even tasting, smelling.
[13:46] You are looking at your own experience,
[13:51] right? And you know sometimes in
[13:53] Buddhism we say, "Oh, you know, we we we
[13:55] we
[13:57] want to
[14:00] we train ourselves to look at the world
[14:03] as ourselves.
[14:06] And I remember first hearing that and
[14:07] thinking that's quite remote. That's
[14:10] sounds difficult. I have to really oh I
[14:12] have to kind of reorganize all of my
[14:13] thinking.
[14:17] But but really look at it like
[14:19] objectively with scientists, right?
[14:21] We're supposed to be objective.
[14:24] Look at it and realize that this is
[14:26] right now my experience.
[14:29] Do you really think that your experience
[14:31] is not you?
[14:36] Do you really think that your experience
[14:38] is not part of you?
[14:43] How could your experience not be part of
[14:46] you?
[14:47] That would be very strange.
[14:52] So if your experience which is what
[14:55] you're experiencing is part of you then
[14:57] you are looking at you
[15:01] because this I'm pointing this way you
[15:03] have to point this way this is your
[15:05] experience
[15:07] happening now
[15:10] is part of you
[15:15] interesting
[15:17] to me that's interesting
[15:19] so we physicalism. I hope we've just
[15:23] dealt with that,
[15:28] but we also have uh these days we have
[15:31] pansychism. So there's another attempt
[15:33] to sort of say okay well okay we do need
[15:36] to account for consciousness
[15:38] uh so maybe everything is conscious.
[15:42] So oddly it's to me well there are many
[15:46] different kinds of pansychism so I I
[15:47] don't want to you know cast aspersions
[15:50] but there are at least some versions
[15:52] that are very close to materialism. It's
[15:54] actually kind of like matter
[15:56] um with another property
[15:59] called consciousness.
[16:01] Right? So it's still atoms and
[16:04] electrons, protons, neutrons, quarks,
[16:05] whatever. But now they have an extra
[16:07] property like charge and spin and but
[16:10] this one's consciousness.
[16:12] I I don't find it satisfying, but it's
[16:14] interesting that that it's kind of it's
[16:16] had a big resurgence in the last few
[16:18] years. We also have idealism. So
[16:20] idealism is is is another kind of
[16:23] everything is consciousness or
[16:25] everything is in consciousness
[16:28] um
[16:30] but with a different different flavor.
[16:33] And then we have um simulation theory.
[16:38] You know that one? Silicon Valley loves
[16:40] this one.
[16:42] Um, so we're living in a simulation and
[16:45] maybe we're in a simulation inside
[16:48] another simulation inside another
[16:49] simulation and and we don't know if
[16:51] there's a you know a sort of base layer
[16:54] of that stack of simulations.
[16:58] And some people's really really think
[17:00] that I mean they actually think that
[17:01] they can sort of prove that this is the
[17:03] case.
[17:05] Um,
[17:06] so anyway, I'm not really here to to
[17:08] sort of
[17:10] discuss or debate these different
[17:12] theories, but just just to point out
[17:14] that it's it's interesting to me that
[17:17] after a good a solid century of
[17:21] scientific materialism, more or less,
[17:24] um,
[17:25] we're now it's kind of not looking so
[17:28] convincing anymore. And these other
[17:31] other kind of uh sometimes earlier ways
[17:35] of understanding and thinking are coming
[17:37] back and we're trying again. We're we're
[17:39] we're kind of asking these big questions
[17:41] again. What is the nature of reality
[17:49] and we're looking for an answer?
[17:52] we have um
[17:57] and and and many people sort of come to
[17:59] Buddhism and say well what's the
[18:00] Buddhist answer to this question the
[18:02] nature of reality which is why I came to
[18:04] Plum Village the first time around
[18:08] and um it took me a long time to
[18:13] I mean I think I heard it but then it
[18:15] took me a long time to really understand
[18:16] and then an even longer time to actually
[18:18] accept that Buddhism in its in its kind
[18:22] of purest form
[18:25] does not propose an answer.
[18:30] So the in in one way of understanding
[18:33] Buddhism is is the removal
[18:36] of these views and concepts but it
[18:39] doesn't seek to then replace these views
[18:41] and concepts with a better view or
[18:43] concept.
[18:45] And this is really important.
[18:48] So um at some point I I started thinking
[18:53] of this as a kind of radical empiricism
[18:58] and then I discovered that William James
[18:59] had already got there you know a good
[19:01] 100 years ago. So so this is also not
[19:04] new. Um and it's in a sense it's also
[19:08] phenomenology.
[19:10] Someone also asked me the other day are
[19:12] you going to do phenomenology? I think
[19:14] we're always doing phenomenology.
[19:18] Um,
[19:20] so what is phenomenology? It's it's also
[19:22] the ideally the
[19:25] the discipline of um suspending
[19:31] beliefs, notions, conceptual structures
[19:34] about the nature of experience and
[19:37] experiencing it as
[19:40] um in in in
[19:44] a kind of uh in a way that's not
[19:47] mediated by beliefs, views, and
[19:49] concepts.
[19:52] quite hard to do. It takes some
[19:54] practice. And that's also one way of
[19:56] understanding what this practice that
[19:58] we're doing is all about. When we say
[20:00] come back to the body, when we say bring
[20:03] our awareness to the contact of our feet
[20:06] with the ground, some people after a
[20:08] little while, if they hear that a few
[20:10] times and they hear Tai saying breathing
[20:11] in, I smile, you know, breathing out, I
[20:15] enjoy. And they're like, okay, okay,
[20:17] okay, fine. But but then what?
[20:21] No, no,
[20:23] there's no then what?
[20:25] Just keep doing that.
[20:29] Keep doing that and you will see
[20:34] that's the challenge.
[20:38] See for yourself.
[20:44] But it's very hard.
[20:46] So we also try to help each other and do
[20:49] it and it's easier to get there.
[20:51] So
[20:55] I like this idea of kind of radical
[20:57] empiricism of coming back to to look at
[21:00] the nature of experience and not
[21:02] somebody else's experience,
[21:04] right? My experience and not not like my
[21:07] experience a week ago but my experience
[21:10] right now.
[21:12] That's my laboratory. That's where I can
[21:14] experiment. That's where I can see what
[21:17] is going on.
[21:20] Um,
[21:25] so in the rest of this talk, there will
[21:28] be things that I say
[21:31] that kind of might sound like
[21:34] metaphysics or ontology. It will really
[21:37] look and sound like
[21:40] uh I'm saying this is Buddhist
[21:43] metaphysics. But I really want you to
[21:45] remember it is not
[21:49] these are all um
[21:52] temporary
[21:54] tools that we use
[21:57] to remove other views and in the end we
[22:01] have to let go of even the tools the the
[22:05] the removing views tools
[22:08] because they will also get in the way.
[22:13] Um, I remember Tai saying very early on,
[22:16] you know, the the Buddha said that the
[22:18] teachings are like a snake
[22:21] and they can bite you.
[22:24] And I kind of didn't really I was like,
[22:26] okay, yeah, fine. You know, but I didn't
[22:30] really get it. But what he's really
[22:32] saying like be careful. These teachings
[22:35] are dangerous.
[22:37] We use the teaching of non-self
[22:41] to help us remove the view of self
[22:44] because we know the view of self can
[22:46] cause suffering. We observe that it
[22:48] makes us small. It makes us we suffer in
[22:52] countless ways. So we we have this
[22:53] teaching of nonself to help us uproot
[22:55] that view and hopefully suffer less. But
[22:57] if you get attached to the teaching of
[23:00] non-self,
[23:02] that is a far worse suffering
[23:06] because there may be no antidote.
[23:12] It's dangerous. And you might have met
[23:15] some people like that who've been to a
[23:16] few too many retreats,
[23:19] you know, and they start throwing around
[23:21] the non-self teaching.
[23:25] It can be kind of violent.
[23:28] Like imagine if you're in a war zone,
[23:31] you know, if your child has been killed
[23:34] and somebody comes and tells you, "Oh,
[23:36] don't worry. There's no self. Why do you
[23:39] suffer?"
[23:42] How does that help?
[23:46] That's not That's not skillful. That's
[23:49] not wise. It's not compassionate.
[23:53] It's It's useless. It's worse than
[23:54] useless. you're making things worse.
[23:58] So we got to be very careful with the
[24:00] teachings especially with the teachings
[24:03] on the ultimate
[24:06] the nature of the ultimate reality.
[24:09] They are the most dangerous.
[24:14] So
[24:16] warning
[24:21] [Music]
[24:35] [Music]
[25:07] So, we're in dangerous territory.
[25:10] Uh, I see if I can make one thing clear.
[25:13] Um because I've also had this question
[25:15] in the last few days
[25:17] and I talk about physicalism or
[25:18] scientific materialism and I say I'm not
[25:20] so sure you know about the objective
[25:24] existence of matter and energy and the
[25:26] laws of physics as a as a sort of you
[25:30] know cosmos independent from
[25:32] consciousness. When I say I'm not sure
[25:34] about that then people may assume
[25:37] something else very quickly. And this is
[25:40] the question. The question I've heard is
[25:42] along the lines of, "Okay, so are you
[25:44] saying that none of this is real, that
[25:47] this doesn't exist or that it's all in
[25:50] our mind?"
[25:53] No, I I don't think I said any of those
[25:55] things. And I certainly never heard Tai
[25:58] saying any of those things.
[26:01] Right? So, let's be careful not to
[26:03] substitute one thing with another thing.
[26:06] So, we're just removing something. We're
[26:09] trying not to put something in its place
[26:11] and
[26:13] it's going to be a little bit
[26:15] uncomfortable
[26:17] because it's going to make us uncertain
[26:21] and that is just a sort of
[26:23] physiologically uncomfortable thing,
[26:27] but it's not bad. A little discomfort
[26:29] might be a good thing.
[26:32] So, so let's be comfortable with the
[26:34] discomfort of of kind of not knowing.
[26:38] Again,
[26:40] not knowing is wonderful.
[26:43] So, I can look at this and say, I don't
[26:45] know.
[26:48] And then I have a chance. Yeah. Then the
[26:50] mind is a little bit open.
[26:55] So, I'm not saying that this isn't real.
[26:58] I'm not saying that it doesn't exist.
[27:00] It's
[27:02] It's pretty real.
[27:06] I'm also maybe not saying that it
[27:09] exists.
[27:11] Mhm.
[27:13] But if I remove the idea of existing, I
[27:16] don't replace it with the idea of not
[27:18] existing.
[27:22] Anybody know the answer?
[27:27] I've removed the idea of being, right?
[27:29] I'm saying this this
[27:31] it cannot be by itself
[27:37] as an entity as a separate entity but
[27:40] I'm also saying that it's not in the
[27:41] category of non-being where we can all
[27:43] see it
[27:48] interbeing
[27:52] right answer temporary answer okay be
[27:56] careful with that one too is also an
[27:59] instrument. So we use the instrument of
[28:02] into being to help us be freed from the
[28:07] our addiction to to the categories of
[28:11] being and non-being.
[28:15] And but this happens all the time when
[28:17] we say there's no this right no self as
[28:22] in no separate self. It's it's in a way
[28:25] it's already misleading because so I I
[28:27] like sometimes saying with the flower
[28:31] instead of saying it's empty because
[28:34] then people substitute empty for
[28:36] non-existent
[28:37] or they think oh so there's nothing.
[28:40] No, it's it's empty of only one thing
[28:43] which is separateness.
[28:46] So maybe empty is or a little
[28:49] misleading. I like sometimes saying
[28:52] non-separateness. It is
[28:54] non-separateness.
[28:56] There is no separateness.
[28:58] And that's much easier to to see because
[29:01] again we sort of check with our radical
[29:04] eyes of radical empiricism and you look
[29:06] and you see
[29:08] this is in my experience.
[29:13] So how can it be separate?
[29:18] It's in your eyes. It's in your visual
[29:21] consciousness.
[29:24] Where do you find separateness? I don't
[29:26] find it.
[29:33] It's like try to look at it and at the
[29:36] same time
[29:38] take it out of yourself.
[29:42] It's like I I don't know, maybe you're a
[29:44] better surgeon than I am, but
[29:47] I don't have a scalpel fine enough.
[29:52] like
[29:54] it's in me
[29:57] not separate.
[30:01] Not to mention the sun,
[30:07] the rain,
[30:10] time,
[30:13] space,
[30:15] the evolution of life.
[30:18] You can't take out any of those things
[30:21] from this
[30:24] any one of them out. It it collapses.
[30:27] It cannot stand.
[30:31] So what we find is non-separateness.
[30:40] But that's also not metaphysics.
[30:43] It's so tricky.
[30:46] So if if there is any kind of
[30:48] metaphysics, it's a metaphysics of not
[30:51] knowing or a metaphysics of refusing to
[30:53] know.
[30:58] You have to be stubborn
[31:00] and the mind wants to grasp onto knowing
[31:03] very quickly. It's like, oh, I got that
[31:05] now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[31:08] But you have to refuse. Say, no, that is
[31:11] again concept. is just a Buddhist
[31:13] concept, a prettier concept.
[31:17] Don't trust it.
[31:21] Come back to
[31:24] the direct experience.
[31:27] You have like a billionth of a second
[31:29] before your mind jumps onto it and
[31:32] starts
[31:33] naming and
[31:35] categorizing.
[31:38] We try to stay there. it's not so easy.
[31:43] So we have a metaphysics of not knowing
[31:45] or refusing to know and maybe on the way
[31:49] to that there's a kind of uh practice of
[31:53] unknowing.
[31:55] So I'm noticing that I quickly start to
[31:58] know things and I'm aware of the danger
[32:01] of that and so I'm going to practice
[32:04] unknowing. I'm going to practice
[32:07] dissolving what it is that I think I
[32:09] know.
[32:12] And I think that might be safer.
[32:14] Probably also dangerous.
[32:17] Um,
[32:20] so
[32:22] h let's see where do we go from here.
[32:27] Um,
[32:29] some I now now we're really going to get
[32:31] in trouble.
[32:33] Big trouble. I'm going to give you some
[32:35] maps.
[32:37] And I said, you know, we're in the
[32:38] business of removing the maps,
[32:43] but here we go. We're going to give you
[32:45] maps anyway, and maybe these maps can
[32:48] help remove some other maps.
[32:51] So there is in the Buddhist teaching
[32:55] something called the historical
[32:56] dimension
[33:02] uh also known as the conventional truth
[33:05] or the relative truth
[33:08] and that is the one that we're kind of
[33:11] used to uh that's the one that we
[33:13] usually deal with where I am me and you
[33:17] are you right we have different names
[33:20] different passports,
[33:23] different personal histories, different
[33:25] parents, different nationalities,
[33:27] characteristics.
[33:31] We appear to be different,
[33:34] separate,
[33:37] right? We also have um
[33:40] yeah all kinds of categorization, right?
[33:43] I I'm I'm human. I'm not flower,
[33:48] right? I'm human. I'm not tree
[33:55] and tree is not and tree is tree tree is
[33:58] not sun is sun tree is tree cloud is
[34:01] cloud rain is rain
[34:04] that's sort of the normal way of going
[34:06] about things and in that world we find
[34:10] uh also causality
[34:12] so things happen because other things
[34:14] happened
[34:18] um and that's fine It's not bad. It's
[34:21] good. Right? I was saying to someone the
[34:23] other day like if you want to not get
[34:25] run over in the street, it's very
[34:28] helpful.
[34:30] Like if you you see the car coming
[34:33] at 80 km an hour and you say, "I'm one
[34:35] with the car."
[34:37] Well, you you might be,
[34:41] you know,
[34:43] might be a little bit too much one with
[34:45] the car.
[34:46] So beware. Sometimes historical
[34:49] dimension thinking, perceiving is very
[34:52] very helpful.
[34:54] Okay, that's a car. This is human. Human
[34:56] is a little bit fragile. Car's moving
[34:59] fast.
[35:01] I'm going to stay on the side of the
[35:02] road.
[35:06] Very practical. It has to do with uh
[35:09] survival,
[35:12] has to do with our our evolution. It,
[35:15] you know, it's just how we navigate the
[35:17] world. that it's very useful.
[35:19] Um, but we also may have noticed that it
[35:23] that it uh it can make us suffer. It
[35:26] makes us feel alone.
[35:30] We
[35:31] don't really like to feel so separate
[35:36] uh so disconnected.
[35:39] We also
[35:41] can kind of make the disconnection even
[35:43] worse if we if we think you know as I
[35:45] did when I was growing up. I I learned
[35:47] to think I am a semi-stable pattern of
[35:51] neural activity
[35:54] which is already kind of saying I'm my I
[35:57] don't know that was normal for me. I
[35:59] don't know about you, but
[36:01] that was like baseline, you know. So
[36:05] that means somehow I'm my brain or I'm
[36:08] I'm not even my brain. I'm like brain
[36:10] activity.
[36:13] And so I already disconnected myself
[36:14] from my body.
[36:17] I was already kind of disowning my body.
[36:18] I am this. I'm not that.
[36:22] So if there are feelings, it's okay. I
[36:24] can disregard them. They're not
[36:26] important.
[36:27] just messy biology,
[36:30] forget about it.
[36:34] And that all seemed to be fine until my
[36:36] mother died.
[36:38] And then it it wasn't fine.
[36:43] I I tried to rely on it. I tried to say,
[36:45] well, she's also a semi-stable pattern
[36:47] of neuron activity.
[36:49] Brain activity has ceased, so she no
[36:51] longer exists.
[36:54] Right? And it's all, you know,
[36:56] deterministic interactions of matter and
[36:59] energy since the big bang anyway. So
[37:03] none of it matters. There is no such
[37:05] thing as meaning. Meaning is an artifact
[37:06] of, you know, human creation and
[37:10] delusion.
[37:12] Nothing means anything. It's all just,
[37:16] you know, random interactions of
[37:19] particles. So who cares?
[37:22] It's what I was saying looking at my
[37:24] mother's body in the ICU.
[37:30] I thought that made sense.
[37:35] I didn't know. I didn't know better. Of
[37:38] course, it came with a lot of pride and
[37:40] arrogance and certainty.
[37:43] I didn't know. It was like I was I was
[37:44] stabbing myself with these beliefs, with
[37:47] these notions. I was hurting myself. I
[37:49] was hurting my father who was standing
[37:50] next to me weeping,
[37:54] trying to help me connect.
[38:00] St. He was like, "No, but the body,
[38:02] don't dismiss it. Yeah, she's she's
[38:05] dead, but but like that's, you know,
[38:08] this is the body that brought you into
[38:10] this world.
[38:12] This is the body that held you,
[38:15] that showed you how to love.
[38:20] Don't disregard it.
[38:22] Don't say it's nothing. Don't say it's
[38:24] meaningless.
[38:26] Don't be too sure.
[38:29] But I was too sure.
[38:34] And I uh so I numbed myself with these
[38:38] beliefs, with my scientific ideology
[38:43] for as long as I could. I I I kept all
[38:46] those feelings, all the grief suppressed
[38:48] until I came here.
[38:53] And I came here thinking I, you know, I
[38:55] wasn't thinking I'm going to come here
[38:56] to resolve my grief, you know, or to to
[39:00] mourn my mother. I was thinking I'm
[39:02] coming here to learn about the ultimate
[39:05] nature of reality and to try to figure
[39:06] out is it scientific materialism or is
[39:08] it some wacky woo magical mysticism
[39:11] telepathy levitation I don't know
[39:14] altered states of consciousness
[39:19] that's why I thought I was coming but
[39:22] the more I look at it the more I
[39:23] realized that there was something in me
[39:24] that was bringing me here that I didn't
[39:27] even know out.
[39:33] So
[39:34] historical dimension good but limited.
[39:41] And so we also propose another way of
[39:44] looking which we can call the ultimate
[39:50] and this is where we get into problems
[39:53] because if I say ultimate dimension it
[39:54] al this this is the mistake I made. I
[39:57] thought, "Okay, that's the metaphysics."
[40:00] You're saying, "This is ultimate. This
[40:01] is the ultimate nature of reality." I I
[40:04] just superimposed. I heard ultimate. I
[40:05] was like, "Okay, ultimate nature of
[40:07] reality. Got it. That's what we're
[40:08] looking for. Tell me about that. That's
[40:12] interesting.
[40:14] That's the thing I want to know about."
[40:17] So, beware. Maybe that's not what it is.
[40:22] I'm also not sure but my my sense is
[40:25] more and more
[40:27] for me I find it more helpful
[40:30] to to kind of
[40:34] again refuse
[40:37] um the the urge towards metaphysics or
[40:42] ontology or description of the nature of
[40:44] reality. So rather
[40:46] I want to remind myself
[40:51] that there is something fundamentally
[40:53] unknowable, unsayable and mysterious.
[40:57] And I want to keep it mysterious because
[40:59] mysterious is so much more interesting.
[41:05] Like if I know it,
[41:08] if somebody told me and then I told you
[41:10] and we were like, "Okay, that's that's
[41:11] it. We're done." It's so boring.
[41:16] Yeah. Then then what? Just walk around
[41:18] knowing it. I know it. I know it. I know
[41:22] it.
[41:23] I can't think of anything worse.
[41:27] So refuse,
[41:30] refuse to know. And instead we can
[41:33] understand these two
[41:35] uh teachings as um as uh two ways in
[41:41] which this ultimately completely
[41:44] mysterious whatever it is
[41:47] appears to us.
[41:52] Right? So there's something about the
[41:54] way we are constituted
[41:56] which makes it such that there are at
[42:00] least two fundamentally different ways
[42:04] that this mysterious nature of whatever
[42:06] it is manifests to us or appears to us.
[42:15] Okay. So there's one way of looking and
[42:19] thinking and seeing and being and
[42:20] walking around and not getting run over
[42:22] by cars in which we we perceive things
[42:27] as separate and outside of each other.
[42:31] But there's another there's something
[42:33] about the way we are constituted which
[42:36] is such that we can also
[42:41] have the experience
[42:43] that things are interconnected and
[42:46] inside of each other.
[42:50] Right? So I can look at the flower and I
[42:53] can see the sun.
[42:55] I can see the sun in the flower. I mean
[42:57] I'm not making this up. This is not
[42:59] poetry. I can see the sun in the flower.
[43:02] I can see the rain
[43:05] in the flower. And
[43:08] we're going to get into this question of
[43:10] imagination a little bit later because
[43:11] it's to some extent imagination.
[43:14] But with training,
[43:18] something happens. Something begins to
[43:20] happen.
[43:23] So we kind of train ourselves to look
[43:26] again.
[43:29] And where do we look to find this this
[43:33] interconnected
[43:35] experience?
[43:37] We look here.
[43:41] You look into the historical dimension.
[43:44] You look closely enough with the eyes of
[43:47] a scientist,
[43:49] right? You look deeply enough and what
[43:51] you find is only interconnection. It's
[43:53] only interdependence.
[43:57] But remember not as a theory of
[44:00] everything but as an experience as a way
[44:02] of perceiving.
[44:07] Okay.
[44:09] So um we can also draw some parallels
[44:15] um between these two ways of thinking,
[44:18] ways of knowing, ways of speaking, ways
[44:20] of perceiving,
[44:22] ways of experiencing
[44:24] um which which may be partly helpful.
[44:29] Um,
[44:31] so
[44:34] let's put the
[44:38] ultimate here.
[44:42] I like to put the ultimate on the left
[44:44] because maybe the right hemisphere
[44:48] finds it easier to experience the world
[44:50] in terms of the ultimate.
[44:55] And we put the historical on the right
[44:58] because the left hemisphere seems to
[45:01] like
[45:03] looking and knowing at things in terms
[45:05] of
[45:06] separateness, categorization so on.
[45:11] Uh so there's a wonderful physicist some
[45:13] of you may have heard of called David
[45:15] Bow and he coined two words
[45:20] um which he called the implicate the
[45:23] implicate order and the explicate
[45:29] order and Tai would very often connect
[45:32] these. So in the explicate order
[45:35] everything is explicited it's outside
[45:38] everything is outside of everything
[45:39] else. Everything is parts
[45:42] and separate sort of pieces and in the
[45:44] implicate cord order everything is
[45:46] implicit in everything else. It's more
[45:49] like a kind of he saw it as like a
[45:51] holographic nature of reality. So you
[45:54] know you look into any part you find the
[45:56] whole.
[45:58] We can also think about um
[46:02] Tai would sometimes use words from
[46:04] western philosophy. So for those of you
[46:06] who who are familiar with that, it may
[46:08] be helpful. He talked about the numinal
[46:15] and the phenomenal.
[46:21] Um, and if it if these words are not
[46:23] familiar to you, don't worry about it.
[46:26] Right? It's not like by understanding
[46:27] these words that you're going to
[46:29] understand the nature of your
[46:30] experience. It's more like if you
[46:31] already know these words then it might
[46:33] be help just some more signposts that
[46:37] can be helpful.
[46:40] So phenomenal is just there are
[46:41] phenomena they are separate they are
[46:43] nameable categorizable and so on and and
[46:45] at the level of the numinal there is
[46:49] something else.
[46:53] Um we can think about uh the temporal,
[46:59] we think in terms of time
[47:01] and maybe the eternal. I mean this is
[47:04] just like don't take it too seriously.
[47:07] Okay.
[47:09] Um but there's something it is possible
[47:13] again in the realm of experience to sort
[47:16] of experience
[47:19] eternity in the present moment.
[47:22] Right? And how do we do that? We do that
[47:25] by again looking into the historical
[47:27] dimension. We see like okay the whole of
[47:31] the past has conditioned and given rise
[47:34] to this moment. So there's a sense in
[47:36] which the whole of the past is in this
[47:38] moment. It is the nature of this moment
[47:43] and this moment is the ground of the
[47:46] entirety of the future.
[47:50] Right? So this this moment also has the
[47:53] whole future unfolding of whatever this
[47:56] is in it.
[47:59] Okay. So again I don't say this as as a
[48:02] theoretical thing. I say this as
[48:03] something to to meditate upon to see if
[48:06] we can touch in our experience.
[48:11] Um, we can also think of the spiritual
[48:19] and the mundane
[48:22] or the worldly.
[48:25] Um,
[48:27] and I just like again this is not so
[48:30] important but
[48:32] may or may not be helpful. We can think
[48:34] about mythos
[48:37] and logos.
[48:39] So these are
[48:43] two ways of speaking almost two ways of
[48:45] thinking and knowing and speaking that
[48:48] are fundamentally different and maybe
[48:50] seemingly incompatible but actually
[48:53] we've we've in our history we've used
[48:56] these two ways and we've we used to know
[49:00] when to use which one, right? So we use
[49:04] logos,
[49:06] you know, when we need to get something
[49:08] done, build a house, uh a hole, you
[49:11] know, whatever we think is important,
[49:15] but when somebody dies,
[49:17] right, you you don't stick in the realm
[49:19] of logos, it doesn't help. So we need to
[49:23] move
[49:25] in in the in matters of spiritual
[49:27] experience, in matters of of
[49:30] Yeah. uh
[49:36] deep spiritual experiences. You can't
[49:39] like to use the language of logos is
[49:42] very strange. It's pointless. It's it's
[49:45] not helpful. So there we have these two
[49:48] ways of knowing and speaking
[49:52] and um
[49:54] yeah any for anybody who's read in
[49:56] McGillchrist I'm not going to go down
[49:58] this rabbit hole I promise but maybe
[50:01] it's worth looking into the left
[50:03] hemisphere's way of bringing reality
[50:06] into being and the right hemisphere's
[50:08] way of bringing
[50:11] the world into being
[50:14] and they are
[50:17] Um,
[50:20] okay.
[50:22] So, part of our practice is to learn how
[50:25] to navigate and which one to apply when,
[50:29] right?
[50:30] just as you know when um
[50:36] that you know there are situations like
[50:38] I described when it would be very
[50:39] inappropriate to to sort of try to use
[50:42] the words of uh the historical truth.
[50:47] There are other situations where it is
[50:49] inappropriate and I've already said that
[50:51] a little bit to to to use the language
[50:53] of the ultimate truth. It it could be
[50:54] spiritual bypass.
[50:57] If you have somebody in front of you who
[50:59] has just experienced a loss or a trauma
[51:03] or you know is in grief or in is in
[51:06] immediate suffering
[51:09] to start you know going on at them about
[51:11] the ultimate truth and say oh
[51:13] everything's fine we all inter you know
[51:15] everything's interconnected
[51:18] don't be a victim
[51:21] it's it's not okay
[51:24] and we really need to check ourselves
[51:28] as a spiritual community maybe as the
[51:30] plumbumberish tradition.
[51:34] Do we sometimes do this? Yes,
[51:40] we need to be very careful and we need
[51:42] to be very compassionate.
[51:44] You know when somebody's in suffering
[51:46] there are so many ways we can help them.
[51:48] Help them first of all just to be with
[51:50] the suffering to calm it, to soothe it,
[51:54] just to accept and you just say, "I know
[51:56] your suffering.
[52:00] That's why I'm here for you.
[52:03] I'm going to be with you in your
[52:05] suffering."
[52:07] You don't immediately start bashing them
[52:09] over the head with the ultimate truth.
[52:13] And and it's not that I don't think the
[52:15] ultimate truth is useful to help
[52:16] transcending suffering. Of course it is.
[52:19] But first you got to calm it down. You
[52:20] got to soothe it. We got to, you know, I
[52:24] call it taking care of the mammal. We're
[52:26] also a mammal and you just got to take
[52:28] care of the mammal. The mammal needs
[52:29] care. The mammal needs love. The mammal
[52:31] needs reassurance, needs acceptance,
[52:35] needs trust, needs connection.
[52:40] And maybe, you know, when we're a little
[52:43] bit calmer, we've regained our
[52:46] stability, then we can start
[52:49] looking at the ultimate truth because we
[52:52] also have to go there if we really want
[52:53] to free ourselves.
[52:59] Okay.
[53:01] So, let's go on.
[53:06] [Music]
[53:22] [Music]
[53:46] So sometimes sometimes Tai would um
[53:51] do his uh do a little move that he
[53:53] called the Zoro,
[53:56] right? This this is this is Zoro. Okay,
[54:01] we need a new pen for Zoro.
[54:17] So this this is what Tai would uh refer
[54:21] to as the wisdom of adaptation. It is
[54:24] the types all many different kinds of
[54:26] practice that help us to traverse this
[54:30] apparent
[54:32] space or this apparent distinction
[54:34] between the historical and the ultimate.
[54:37] So these are practices ways of looking
[54:40] that help us to bridge the apparent
[54:43] divide.
[54:45] Um, and one basic way that we've already
[54:48] been learning about and that we can
[54:50] apply again and again in so many ways is
[54:53] to look with the eyes of interbeing.
[54:57] So into being is very skillful because
[54:59] it starts with it still has being in it.
[55:03] Right? So we still we start with things
[55:06] that appear to exist and appear to be
[55:08] separate and we can say this is a
[55:10] flower. But then we start looking at it
[55:12] more closely and we discover everything
[55:16] else. Right? So it's um it's a
[55:22] it's a way
[55:24] of looking a way of investigating
[55:28] that helps us to move fluidly
[55:32] and we can go in both directions.
[55:37] And then as we get more and more
[55:39] skillful with that, what we find, and
[55:42] sometimes Ty would draw this, is that
[55:43] the two
[55:46] are not two,
[55:48] right? The historical and the ultimate,
[55:51] they're more like two facets,
[55:54] two appearances of one reality.
[56:00] So, um, again, don't get caught in the
[56:04] map.
[56:06] Um
[56:08] the other day we spoke about or the
[56:10] other two days I think we spoke about um
[56:12] Buddhist psychology and this this
[56:14] beautiful model the circle eight layers
[56:18] of consciousness. You have the five
[56:20] sense consciousnesses. Mind
[56:22] consciousness
[56:23] which is the sixth manas or mentation
[56:28] the this the kind of self concept which
[56:31] is the seventh and store consciousness
[56:33] which is the field of all the seeds
[56:36] which is the eighth.
[56:40] And I don't know if you if anybody
[56:42] noticed in uh Ruth's presentation
[56:44] yesterday
[56:46] uh she had more than five sensory
[56:49] consciousnesses
[56:50] which I which is very cool. Did you did
[56:52] you count? Yeah, somebody counted eight.
[56:54] I also counted eight. There may be even
[56:56] more but but I think we had so the
[56:59] normal five like seeing you know visual
[57:01] auditory
[57:03] alactory gustatory smata sensory but
[57:06] then also uh propriceptive right the
[57:09] sense of you can close your eyes and you
[57:11] know where your limbs are in space
[57:13] interceptive which is actually probably
[57:17] multiple but it's all the different
[57:19] sensory pathways that tell us the kind
[57:21] of homeostatic condition of our body. So
[57:26] it it can be blood pressure, uh
[57:29] breathing rate, heart rate.
[57:32] We have osmo sensors which is which
[57:34] measure the stress on our bones. Um and
[57:38] many many many heat, cold, pain, uh
[57:42] gentle touch, pin prick, many many many
[57:45] different sensory pathways
[57:49] which can be summarized with this
[57:50] interceptive. It's like the state of our
[57:53] body in the present moment. And then uh
[57:56] vstibular, right? That was the other
[57:58] one. So this the you can close your eyes
[58:00] and you also know where up and down is,
[58:02] right? We have this sense of
[58:05] of uh balance.
[58:09] So So that's nice. We can uh we can we
[58:14] can take a list and make it into a
[58:16] longer list.
[58:19] Um so instead of eight consciousnesses
[58:21] now we have 11
[58:24] right because this five sense
[58:27] consciousnesses now plus three
[58:29] so we have eight sense consciousnesses
[58:31] and then mind consciousness manas store
[58:35] at least
[58:38] um and
[58:41] now we're going to see if we can get
[58:43] into some new territory
[58:46] we don't often get to teach this because
[58:48] usually, you know, all that store
[58:50] consciousness stuff we, you know, we
[58:51] sometimes do it on the last day, but
[58:53] since we already did it on the first
[58:54] day, that allows us to to play uh and to
[58:57] go a little bit further.
[59:00] Um, so I haven't heard this taught since
[59:04] Tai taught it in I think last time I
[59:07] heard Tai teaching it was maybe 2006
[59:10] in the neuroscience retreat.
[59:13] Um,
[59:15] so we talk about
[59:17] modes and realms.
[59:21] How much room do I need?
[59:24] Uh, okay. Maybe I need a bit more room.
[59:47] So these are Oh, is there a new marker
[59:51] by any chance? Sound team
[59:56] seem to be done.
[1:00:02] Oh, these ones. Okay.
[1:00:05] So these are modes um modes of uh
[1:00:09] cognition
[1:00:12] and um
[1:00:16] so again not the nature of reality
[1:00:19] nature of perception.
[1:00:24] Thank you. Oh it's blue. Okay. I've
[1:00:27] already got a blue one. It's okay. Thank
[1:00:28] you. Some reason I like black. But blue
[1:00:32] is also good. That's my mind of
[1:00:34] discrimination.
[1:00:36] All right. So, um,
[1:00:41] so we have modes of perception or modes
[1:00:44] of cognition
[1:00:48] and there are
[1:00:51] in the
[1:00:53] tradition we identify three.
[1:00:57] And the first is direct.
[1:01:01] And this is interesting because most of
[1:01:04] modern science says that this is not
[1:01:06] possible,
[1:01:08] right? We only have mediated, you know,
[1:01:10] perception mediated by imperfect sensory
[1:01:14] organs.
[1:01:16] So this is interesting. True or not
[1:01:18] true? I don't know. But interesting.
[1:01:23] Um so in the mode of direct perception
[1:01:29] um
[1:01:31] this is uh way in which we encounter
[1:01:34] reality with no discrimination,
[1:01:39] no uh and no speculation, no mental map
[1:01:44] making, theory making, no conceptual
[1:01:47] intervention,
[1:01:49] no language.
[1:01:52] just direct
[1:01:55] and um if we think of the uh
[1:02:01] and maybe I'll just put it down here for
[1:02:03] reference,
[1:02:06] we have our nice model
[1:02:10] with the five or eight sensory
[1:02:13] consciousnesses,
[1:02:16] right? And the
[1:02:19] this is the sixth.
[1:02:21] This is the seventh
[1:02:24] and this is the eighth
[1:02:27] and these are the five.
[1:02:33] So if I say the the five, the sixth, the
[1:02:35] seventh or the eighth, you you know what
[1:02:37] I'm talking about.
[1:02:39] So um the five sense consciousnesses or
[1:02:43] eight and according to the teaching have
[1:02:46] the possibility of being in the mode of
[1:02:50] direct
[1:02:52] perception
[1:02:54] when they are not collaborating with
[1:02:56] mind consciousness. So they operate
[1:02:59] directly with with store without the
[1:03:02] intervention of mind. So the
[1:03:03] intervention of mind is the naming,
[1:03:06] identifying,
[1:03:08] speculating, inferring
[1:03:12] and so on. Um and also without the
[1:03:16] intervention of the seventh.
[1:03:20] Let's do a little experiment.
[1:03:26] Quite often when we feel something,
[1:03:30] let's say you have a sensation in your
[1:03:32] body. I hope you have a sensation in
[1:03:33] your body right now and you find a
[1:03:36] sensation. It might be pleasant, might
[1:03:38] be unpleasant, it might be neutral,
[1:03:41] might be mixed. There might be a little
[1:03:44] bit of tension, a little bit of
[1:03:47] something somewhere.
[1:03:49] Um,
[1:03:52] as you feel that,
[1:03:55] see if you can notice
[1:03:59] the way in which
[1:04:01] kind of unconsciously
[1:04:05] there's a feeling of this is my feeling.
[1:04:11] That's the normal way of feeling.
[1:04:14] And now as you are feeling that
[1:04:18] see if you can to whatever extent
[1:04:24] take away
[1:04:26] the notion or the assumption that it is
[1:04:29] my feeling and just experience it as
[1:04:32] feeling.
[1:04:33] There is feeling
[1:04:50] So it's possible quite subtle quite
[1:04:54] difficult the the my feeling bit comes
[1:04:56] in very fast and you might touch for a
[1:04:59] moment the just just feeling and then
[1:05:01] very quickly it gets reappropriated in
[1:05:04] my feeling.
[1:05:06] I like I don't like I want more. I want
[1:05:08] less. I don't want anything. I wanted an
[1:05:11] ice cream.
[1:05:14] I didn't order this. You know, I ordered
[1:05:17] French fries.
[1:05:19] You brought me a sandwich. You know, we
[1:05:21] we we we we have all kinds of things
[1:05:24] that that that follow on from this my.
[1:05:28] Once you have my, you have a whole chain
[1:05:30] of confusion.
[1:05:32] So, it's very interesting to experiment
[1:05:33] with can I feel just feeling without
[1:05:37] appropriation.
[1:05:39] So this might be a kind of uh beginning
[1:05:43] of experience of of this possibility of
[1:05:46] direct perception. Usually it's very
[1:05:47] brief
[1:05:49] mind consciousness. The sixth also can
[1:05:54] perceive in the mode of direct
[1:05:56] perception
[1:06:00] but it's very rare, very difficult and
[1:06:03] probably takes a lot of training.
[1:06:07] So it's very difficult for mind
[1:06:10] to perceive without
[1:06:13] mental elaboration and
[1:06:16] um so this would be mind also without
[1:06:20] language
[1:06:22] a little bit tricky
[1:06:24] but possible.
[1:06:27] Um
[1:06:29] so mind when it intervenes it also
[1:06:32] discriminates it says it names very
[1:06:34] quickly. It's very hard. You may like to
[1:06:36] try as well. You walk around, try to
[1:06:39] look and see and feel without naming,
[1:06:41] without identifying.
[1:06:45] Tricky, but possible.
[1:06:48] But mind comes very quickly and says
[1:06:50] this is a tree. Maybe even which kind of
[1:06:52] tree, this is a nice tree, this is not a
[1:06:54] nice tree, I like this tree, I don't
[1:06:55] like this tree. All kinds of things
[1:06:57] start happening. And once we identify
[1:07:00] something as say flower,
[1:07:06] you also have the implicit statement of
[1:07:10] this is not
[1:07:12] a cloud, right? Flower is flower, cloud
[1:07:15] is cloud. These are different. That's
[1:07:18] mind discriminating, chopping reality
[1:07:22] and experience into pieces with the
[1:07:25] sword of discrimination.
[1:07:29] So uh this is the first mode of
[1:07:32] perception. Then we have
[1:07:35] the mode of inference
[1:07:41] also
[1:07:43] deduction and induction.
[1:07:46] Um
[1:07:48] and uh this is the mind that tells you
[1:07:51] when you see smoke say oh there must be
[1:07:53] a fire. Right? Right? So you don't see
[1:07:55] the fire, you see the smoke and your
[1:07:58] mind sees fire.
[1:08:01] You you have inferred from smoke the
[1:08:04] presence of fire. And we also do this
[1:08:07] all the time and we do it very rapidly
[1:08:09] without noticing that we're doing it.
[1:08:12] Um there are two ways uh that we can use
[1:08:16] this mind of inference. It's either
[1:08:19] alone or collectively.
[1:08:22] So in the research community, we may be
[1:08:25] doing kind of collective
[1:08:27] inference. I make an inference, you make
[1:08:30] an inference, we check, we compare, we
[1:08:31] say, "Okay, we agree
[1:08:34] and and we and we proceed." Again, I'm
[1:08:36] not not necessarily bad like this is
[1:08:38] this is good. And most
[1:08:41] I would say most of scientific research
[1:08:44] happens with this mind, the mind of
[1:08:46] investigation,
[1:08:48] reasoning, inference, deduction.
[1:08:53] Um,
[1:08:56] and really
[1:09:00] it only has access to the historical
[1:09:04] dimension, this mind.
[1:09:08] But with some care it might actually
[1:09:09] help us help to lead us to the ultimate
[1:09:11] dimension. Okay. So even at the
[1:09:14] beginning looking with the eyes of
[1:09:16] interbeing is a kind of inference or
[1:09:19] deduction. I once asked Tai this
[1:09:21] question and it because it kind of
[1:09:22] annoyed me and I was a bit confused. You
[1:09:24] know you talk about eating meditation.
[1:09:26] You you true the piece of carrot and you
[1:09:28] see the field where it was planted and
[1:09:32] you see the stars and the moon and the
[1:09:34] sun and the wind and the rain and the
[1:09:36] farmers and the and I was like but isn't
[1:09:40] that just my imagination? Right? Aren't
[1:09:44] I just thinking and I have to know those
[1:09:46] things in advance, right? I have to know
[1:09:48] about carrots and what they looked like
[1:09:50] in a field and how they were planted and
[1:09:52] Right. Right. So I'm I'm kind of using
[1:09:54] knowledge
[1:09:57] and I what I wanted to know is that is
[1:09:59] there some mystical state of using the
[1:10:01] eyes of interbeing where you just see
[1:10:02] boom
[1:10:04] no knowledge no inference no deduction.
[1:10:09] The form of the question I asked Tai was
[1:10:11] like this. I because Tai used to
[1:10:13] sometimes use the example of an orange
[1:10:14] tree. They say when you see the orange,
[1:10:20] you see the tree.
[1:10:23] You look deeply into the orange and you
[1:10:24] see the tree and you see the the blossom
[1:10:28] orange blossom in the spring.
[1:10:32] So my question to Tai was, what if
[1:10:33] you've never seen an orange tree?
[1:10:36] Right? If you've never seen an orange
[1:10:39] tree and you look deeply into an orange,
[1:10:41] do you still see an orange tree?
[1:10:45] I wanted to know is there magic
[1:10:47] basically. Do you look at it?
[1:10:50] You know, omniscience because that would
[1:10:53] be kind of cool. You look at things and
[1:10:55] just know
[1:10:57] I see your true nature.
[1:11:02] And I wanted to know. So I asked, "Hey,
[1:11:05] is it this, you know, are you just
[1:11:07] saying we're going to use things we
[1:11:09] already know about orange trees? And
[1:11:11] this only works if you've seen orange
[1:11:12] trees in books, in photos, in
[1:11:13] documentaries, in reality, and then you
[1:11:16] look deeply and you use your memory and
[1:11:18] your knowledge. Or is it magical,
[1:11:21] mystical,
[1:11:23] kapow?
[1:11:25] So, what do you think Tai said?
[1:11:31] He actually said, "Keep practicing.
[1:11:41] make of that what you will.
[1:11:47] So in a in one sense all this business
[1:11:51] of meditating that we're doing and all
[1:11:52] the practices that we're doing all this
[1:11:55] interconnected ecology of practices that
[1:11:57] we offer you in the container of a
[1:12:00] retreat
[1:12:01] is to
[1:12:03] learn to remove the mind of
[1:12:07] discrimination.
[1:12:09] Not to remove forever and never pick it
[1:12:12] up again. But it's like if if it's all
[1:12:14] if the sword of discrimination is always
[1:12:16] in our hand, then all we get is pieces,
[1:12:20] right? We just constantly cutting
[1:12:22] reality into pieces and we cut
[1:12:26] ourselves.
[1:12:28] So, we have to know when to put it down.
[1:12:32] Right? The mind of uh discrimination is
[1:12:34] not necessarily a bad thing, but let's
[1:12:37] not make it so that it's involuntary or
[1:12:40] so that it's kind of a compulsion. We
[1:12:43] have to be able to have the option to
[1:12:47] put it down.
[1:12:49] I find that worth doing a lot of walking
[1:12:53] meditation for and breathing and all the
[1:12:55] other things. Not that we're
[1:12:57] instrumentalizing meditation, by the
[1:12:59] way.
[1:13:01] Um we have the third mode of cognition
[1:13:04] which is fallacy.
[1:13:09] So
[1:13:11] um
[1:13:13] this is the mode of cognition of of the
[1:13:16] seventh consciousness of manass
[1:13:20] because it already assumes the existence
[1:13:21] of separate selves. It sees everything
[1:13:23] in terms of separate selves and it's
[1:13:24] kind of always wrong. Not necessarily
[1:13:27] useless but always wrong.
[1:13:30] Um, and it can be wrong direct
[1:13:35] or it can be wrong inference.
[1:13:39] So it's, you know, we have intuition,
[1:13:42] right? And and sometimes we, oh, you got
[1:13:43] to trust your gut. Trust your intuition.
[1:13:45] Intuition can be wrong.
[1:13:48] It can also be right.
[1:13:51] But be careful. Just because you have a
[1:13:52] gut feeling doesn't make it true.
[1:13:55] Doesn't make it correct. If you take
[1:13:57] your gut feeling and then look at it
[1:14:00] with the eyes of self or through the
[1:14:02] eyes of self, you may end up being very
[1:14:05] wrong.
[1:14:07] So be careful. But intuition can also be
[1:14:09] trained.
[1:14:12] Um,
[1:14:14] manas
[1:14:16] the seventh consciousness
[1:14:19] uh is this instinctive
[1:14:23] um unconscious
[1:14:26] uh identification with the body
[1:14:28] primarily with this is me, this is mine,
[1:14:32] my my body, my feelings, my thoughts, my
[1:14:34] perceptions, my consciousness.
[1:14:38] It sees things in the in the terms of uh
[1:14:40] self delusion,
[1:14:45] self-love.
[1:14:46] So, it's basically like this self is
[1:14:50] more important. I'm going to care about
[1:14:51] this one more even if I hate it, right?
[1:14:56] We can have self-loathing.
[1:14:58] Do we need a new battery?
[1:15:02] We can have self-loathing
[1:15:04] and self-love at the same time. If you
[1:15:08] haven't noticed,
[1:15:10] uh it it has self view. It sees
[1:15:13] everything in terms of self. Not only
[1:15:14] itself, but everybody else and
[1:15:16] everything else.
[1:15:18] And it has self conceit, which is
[1:15:21] basically like look after number one,
[1:15:24] right? take care of this first. This is
[1:15:26] more important.
[1:15:29] Um, and we learned all the other
[1:15:31] characteristics, right? It it it always
[1:15:33] pleasure seeking, pain avoiding,
[1:15:37] ignoring the dangers of pleasure
[1:15:38] seeking,
[1:15:40] ignoring the goodness of suffering and
[1:15:44] ignoring the law of medit moderation.
[1:15:48] And um,
[1:15:50] it doesn't know how to use the eyes of
[1:15:52] interbeing.
[1:15:54] And it doesn't uh and it sees in terms
[1:15:56] of permanence. It it struggles with
[1:15:59] impermanence.
[1:16:01] So it has an image of reality which is
[1:16:06] conditioned
[1:16:07] by this idea of self, this very
[1:16:10] instinctive unconscious idea of self.
[1:16:14] Um,
[1:16:19] so if you find yourself thinking in
[1:16:22] terms of permanence,
[1:16:26] in terms of duality,
[1:16:29] right, or in terms of self, then it's
[1:16:33] it's very nice because you can kind of
[1:16:34] go, oh, that's automatically wrong.
[1:16:38] So it kind of like that's I think Sister
[1:16:40] Langim was really helping us with that
[1:16:42] on the very first day. It's a very quick
[1:16:45] way to identify unhelpful thinking. So
[1:16:49] again, they're just signposts, but they
[1:16:51] are signposts that can help us discard
[1:16:55] certain paths of investigation or
[1:16:58] questions very quickly. We don't have to
[1:17:00] waste our time.
[1:17:03] And um
[1:17:05] we're going to get to imagination, I
[1:17:08] promised, and visualization.
[1:17:11] And this is this is very interesting
[1:17:13] because Manass needs us to use
[1:17:17] imagination and visualization to help it
[1:17:19] let go of this cutting and
[1:17:23] discriminating and seeing things in
[1:17:24] terms of self.
[1:17:27] So these are the three modes. And then
[1:17:29] there are three realms. And here now
[1:17:31] we're really going to get in trouble
[1:17:33] because when I say three realms of
[1:17:35] perception, it really sounds like
[1:17:37] metaphysics.
[1:17:38] It really sounds like like realm like as
[1:17:41] in nature of reality, but it is a realm
[1:17:44] of perception.
[1:17:48] So there are we perceive in these three
[1:17:51] in terms of three realms.
[1:18:05] And the first is suchness.
[1:18:10] So again, Tai here was borrowing from
[1:18:12] western philosophy and from from Kant.
[1:18:15] This is the the thing in itself. That's
[1:18:23] the thing in itself. And that means
[1:18:26] somehow there is a
[1:18:28] there is a somethingness there is an
[1:18:31] essence of things which is not their
[1:18:33] appearance.
[1:18:35] Right? Uh water
[1:18:39] this is just a metaphor. Okay? Be
[1:18:41] careful with this one too. Water can
[1:18:43] appear as a snowflake
[1:18:46] or as a hailstone
[1:18:48] or as a raindrop or as mist.
[1:18:54] Different faces, different appearances,
[1:18:58] different names. The substance is the
[1:19:01] same
[1:19:05] just a metaphor
[1:19:09] but maybe useful. So um
[1:19:15] in the realm of suchness uh when we
[1:19:17] perceive in the mode of suchness there
[1:19:19] is no duration,
[1:19:22] no time and no space.
[1:19:27] This is tricky because we usually see in
[1:19:30] terms of time and space. And what we
[1:19:34] learn from the tradition is that it is
[1:19:36] the mind that paints time and space onto
[1:19:42] uh this kind of point instant perception
[1:19:49] and it happens so quickly that we don't
[1:19:51] notice the point instant direct
[1:19:54] perception.
[1:19:56] So um
[1:20:01] remember the the the sense consciousness
[1:20:03] is operating with store directly without
[1:20:06] the intervention of mind. They work in
[1:20:08] this mode of direct perception and what
[1:20:11] and in the mode of direct perception
[1:20:12] what they perceive is suchness.
[1:20:17] But then mind intervenes very quickly
[1:20:20] and adds
[1:20:23] our assumptions of space and time.
[1:20:28] And so we we the mode of
[1:20:32] direct perception in the realm of
[1:20:34] suchness is mostly very brief. And we
[1:20:37] need to train our mind because the mind
[1:20:40] can operate in the direct mode and can
[1:20:42] perceive suchness as well. But it takes
[1:20:45] a lot of training.
[1:20:49] Takes training not to paint space and
[1:20:52] time.
[1:20:55] And um
[1:20:58] but maybe some of quantum physics is
[1:21:01] sort of pointing in this direction as
[1:21:04] well.
[1:21:06] um that there there appear to be
[1:21:09] phenomena which are somewhat non
[1:21:13] non-local such as entanglement and maybe
[1:21:16] even non-temporal
[1:21:19] um quantum erasers and all kind there's
[1:21:23] all kinds of things where time no longer
[1:21:24] seems to apply in the usual sense that
[1:21:28] events in the future seem to be able to
[1:21:30] condition events in the present or in
[1:21:32] the past
[1:21:34] and it's seemingly very confusing if we
[1:21:37] believe rigidly in time and space. If we
[1:21:41] can suspend those beliefs,
[1:21:44] well, you know, the maths tells us some
[1:21:46] interesting things.
[1:21:49] Um, but even that quantum physics is
[1:21:51] just a model. So, we shouldn't get
[1:21:53] attached to that either.
[1:21:57] Uh, where are we? The realms. Yes,
[1:21:59] suchness. Then we have the realm of
[1:22:02] representations. So I have to go a
[1:22:04] little bit quickly because
[1:22:06] um there's a lot of this stuff
[1:22:11] representations.
[1:22:19] So um
[1:22:22] this is mostly where we where we hang
[1:22:24] out.
[1:22:26] Um and it's maybe the realm of
[1:22:28] predictive coding. We heard from from
[1:22:30] Mark the other day about predictive
[1:22:32] processing.
[1:22:34] Um that the mind
[1:22:37] sees in terms of what it already knows.
[1:22:39] It makes predictions based on past
[1:22:41] experiences as a way to optimize and to
[1:22:46] reduce
[1:22:49] glucose expenditure basically.
[1:22:53] So it's cheaper for the mind to give you
[1:22:56] the apple of experience than to actually
[1:22:59] check and experience this apple of the
[1:23:02] present moment.
[1:23:05] And but the result of that is there's it
[1:23:07] comes at a cost because the apple of
[1:23:09] experience is kind of washed out. It's
[1:23:11] kind of gray. It's kind of I already
[1:23:13] know. It's the apple I already know.
[1:23:15] It's boring.
[1:23:17] Whereas the apple of this moment is
[1:23:19] totally unknown.
[1:23:21] is the mystery. So if we only perceive
[1:23:24] in the mode of mental constructions and
[1:23:27] representations
[1:23:28] in the realm well the mode of inference
[1:23:32] and fallacy which gives access to the
[1:23:36] realm of representations
[1:23:38] then we only have it's like a hall of
[1:23:40] mirrors.
[1:23:43] It's the matrix. We're living in the
[1:23:44] matrix and we'd like to exit the matrix.
[1:23:49] Maybe
[1:23:51] some people like to stay.
[1:23:56] Um, so we have our ideas about the
[1:24:00] nature of reality and then we experience
[1:24:03] reality in terms of those ideas. So you
[1:24:06] might have noticed
[1:24:09] uh that if you love somebody, you might
[1:24:12] have an idea about them
[1:24:15] and you might be very attached to that
[1:24:17] idea. You have an or you build an image
[1:24:19] of them and you fall in love with the
[1:24:22] image, right? Maybe love at first sight
[1:24:25] and it all seems good and then you live
[1:24:27] with them,
[1:24:29] right? And then after a while, like hang
[1:24:31] on,
[1:24:34] that's not what I signed up for. Where's
[1:24:37] that perfect image that I constructed?
[1:24:38] You fell in love with an image,
[1:24:41] but we want to fall in love with
[1:24:42] reality.
[1:24:46] So, we need to be very careful of
[1:24:48] superimposing
[1:24:49] the realm of representations on our
[1:24:51] experience or or you know, dwelling in
[1:24:53] the realm of representations.
[1:24:55] And it's hard because so much of our
[1:24:57] collective kind of consensus reality is
[1:24:59] built out of these mental constructions
[1:25:01] representations and particularly
[1:25:02] language right and we use language a
[1:25:06] lot. We have names
[1:25:09] and sometimes we get identified with our
[1:25:11] name
[1:25:12] and then we have identity and we get
[1:25:15] identified with our identity. I am a
[1:25:19] scientist
[1:25:21] right?
[1:25:24] I am from this country, from this town.
[1:25:29] I support this football team.
[1:25:32] Identity
[1:25:34] a little bit dangerous. And and we start
[1:25:37] to perceive the world in those terms. We
[1:25:40] may also have ideas and theories about
[1:25:42] uh the nature of reality like the nature
[1:25:44] of elementary particles, atoms,
[1:25:48] electrons.
[1:25:49] They're ideas. And then you look at
[1:25:52] reality through the lens of those ideas.
[1:26:00] And maybe you only find confirmation of
[1:26:03] those ideas,
[1:26:05] right? But you what you start to see is
[1:26:07] the ideas, not the reality because you
[1:26:11] don't know that the lenses have got into
[1:26:14] your way of perceiving.
[1:26:18] Um, so we see it's not that it's totally
[1:26:22] wrong, right? But we only see an aspect
[1:26:25] of reality, not the whole of reality.
[1:26:27] And I think as good scientists, we're
[1:26:29] probably interested in seeing reality.
[1:26:33] We have a third realm, which is the
[1:26:35] realm of mere images.
[1:26:45] And this is um
[1:26:47] also uh imagination
[1:26:50] dreams.
[1:26:52] So experiences that we've had that fall
[1:26:55] into store as a seed.
[1:26:58] Uh let's say you went to the zoo and you
[1:27:00] saw an elephant, right? And in the night
[1:27:04] you dream of an elephant.
[1:27:08] So in the night,
[1:27:10] Manas goes goes wandering around and
[1:27:14] goes for a visit into store and it's
[1:27:16] like self-service. It's like
[1:27:19] it selects
[1:27:21] the image of an elephant, presents it to
[1:27:24] you and you see an elephant but it's a
[1:27:27] mere image. It's not an elephant.
[1:27:30] It's the image of an elephant.
[1:27:34] And uh we may also be perceiving reality
[1:27:37] in terms of mere images sometimes and
[1:27:40] also not necessarily bad like dreams and
[1:27:43] imagination are wonderful and important
[1:27:46] if both for scientists and artists.
[1:27:50] We need our imagination and we're going
[1:27:51] to get to it.
[1:27:54] Um
[1:27:56] okay, we could spend a lot more time.
[1:27:58] There's a lot more to say here, but
[1:27:59] let's just move on. There are also
[1:28:02] three.
[1:28:04] I think I need a bit more space.
[1:28:22] Three moral natures.
[1:28:27] I know you might react because I said
[1:28:29] moral.
[1:28:32] Just, you know, just notice it. Breathe.
[1:28:36] It'll be okay.
[1:28:41] So, these are wholesome
[1:28:46] and yes, you guessed it, unh wholesome
[1:28:53] and indeterminate.
[1:29:02] So um it's not moral as in absolutely
[1:29:06] good or bad right that in in according
[1:29:08] to this teaching there is nothing
[1:29:10] absolutely good or bad it is our mind
[1:29:12] that makes it so it is our mind that
[1:29:15] makes it either helpful or unhelpful
[1:29:18] wholesome or unh wholesome.
[1:29:25] So let's see um if we can sort of tie
[1:29:28] some of this together.
[1:29:31] We have the five or eight
[1:29:36] sense consciousnesses.
[1:29:39] We have the mind consciousness the sixth
[1:29:43] manas
[1:29:45] seventh
[1:29:47] and we have store
[1:29:50] the eighth.
[1:29:52] So let's start
[1:29:54] with store consciousness.
[1:29:56] Store consciousness
[1:29:59] in a sense is seen as um
[1:30:06] it's seen as as nature. So again be
[1:30:08] careful because this really starts to
[1:30:10] sound like metaphysics.
[1:30:12] It is uh
[1:30:18] it's very hard to say this in any way
[1:30:19] that doesn't sound like metaphysics.
[1:30:21] just just take it and be careful. Um
[1:30:25] it's it's the field
[1:30:28] of all potentials.
[1:30:32] It is not manifest. It is not accessible
[1:30:35] to mind consciousness. It is not
[1:30:37] something that we can perceive directly.
[1:30:39] Except maybe we can but um usually not.
[1:30:45] I'm sorry. I know I'm not making it easy
[1:30:48] but it isn't easy. But anyway, so its
[1:30:50] mode of operation is is sort of
[1:30:52] spontaneous.
[1:30:54] Uh it just does things and in that sense
[1:30:56] it is morally indeterminate. It's not
[1:30:59] good or bad. It's just operating
[1:31:01] spontaneously. It is the field of all
[1:31:03] nature
[1:31:05] and but it is also unveiled. It sees
[1:31:09] things as they are. It is completely
[1:31:12] unobstructed by conceptual categories or
[1:31:16] mentation, imagination, speculation,
[1:31:18] inference, deduction or any of those
[1:31:20] things. It just operates
[1:31:23] and it's um
[1:31:27] so it's its mode of operation or it its
[1:31:30] moral nature is indeterminate.
[1:31:34] Okay, not good, not bad.
[1:31:38] uh what it its mode of
[1:31:41] of perception is direct
[1:31:48] and the field
[1:31:52] of of perception or the realm of
[1:31:55] perception is suchness. So in the mode
[1:31:58] of direct perception,
[1:32:01] it experiences
[1:32:04] things exactly as they are and it is
[1:32:07] morally indeterminate
[1:32:11] and it is uh
[1:32:14] uh indeterminate unveiled. No delusion,
[1:32:17] no discrimination. Then we have the
[1:32:19] seventh manas which we know is in a
[1:32:22] sense it's part of store. It's arisen
[1:32:24] from store but it has it's it's come
[1:32:27] it's born from seeds of delusion in
[1:32:29] store seeds of the belief in a separate
[1:32:31] self and based on that belief it reaches
[1:32:34] down into store and identifies and holds
[1:32:38] on to a part of store. It's also called
[1:32:40] the lover. It reaches down says I love
[1:32:42] you
[1:32:44] and what does it love? It loves itself
[1:32:48] and it says this is me.
[1:32:51] But its moral nature is also
[1:32:54] indeterminate,
[1:32:58] right? It's not good or bad. It's just
[1:33:00] spontaneously doing its thing. That's
[1:33:03] just how it operates. It's not right or
[1:33:04] wrong. It's just how it is. It's
[1:33:07] indeterminate, but it's veiled.
[1:33:12] Veiled by the belief in a separate self.
[1:33:16] And this is indeterminate unveiled.
[1:33:19] Okay, that's the eighth. The seventh is
[1:33:21] indeterminate morally but veiled. So it
[1:33:24] has some delusion in it
[1:33:28] and all it has access to
[1:33:32] in terms of the mode of perception is
[1:33:34] fallacy. It seems it sees everything in
[1:33:36] terms of fallacy
[1:33:39] and as a result it only has access
[1:33:43] to the realm of representations.
[1:33:46] Okay? Because of the delusion of self,
[1:33:49] it sees in terms of self which is not
[1:33:51] the true nature of things. Only sees
[1:33:53] that.
[1:33:57] Then we have then it gets more
[1:34:00] interesting. We have let's go to the
[1:34:01] fifth the five or eight sense
[1:34:03] consciousnesses.
[1:34:06] They can operate either with or without
[1:34:09] mind. when they operate
[1:34:12] without mind
[1:34:14] they are in the mode of direct
[1:34:17] perception but it's not exactly the same
[1:34:20] as the direct perception of
[1:34:24] the direct perception of the sense
[1:34:26] consciousness is I would say is in the
[1:34:28] is is um
[1:34:31] direct but uh in the in the realm of
[1:34:34] phenomena
[1:34:36] so it's direct phenomenal which means
[1:34:40] point instant.
[1:34:43] Um
[1:34:49] yes. So it it it still sees in terms of
[1:34:54] things but without
[1:34:57] um mental confabulation.
[1:35:00] Okay. So it's direct but in in the realm
[1:35:03] of phenomena. So maybe in the historical
[1:35:06] dimension and the senses operate like
[1:35:09] this without the intervention of mind
[1:35:12] and as as such. Yeah. So they they they
[1:35:14] have access because their mode of
[1:35:16] perception is direct when mind is not
[1:35:18] involved.
[1:35:19] So what they have access to is suchness
[1:35:21] but it is the phenomenal suchness.
[1:35:24] So
[1:35:26] the suchness of phenomena,
[1:35:32] right? And and store consciousness also
[1:35:35] has access to the realm of suchness, but
[1:35:37] it is both phenomenal and it can touch
[1:35:39] the phenomenal suchness and the numinal.
[1:35:47] Phenomenal and numinal.
[1:35:52] Okay. If any of this is not clear, you
[1:35:55] have to uh wait about 18 months and you
[1:35:58] can read the book.
[1:36:01] Um and and just to be clear, I didn't
[1:36:03] make any of this up. I got this straight
[1:36:05] from Tai, including this diagram. Okay?
[1:36:08] So there's a So it might be better. You
[1:36:10] can also watch the video of Tai doing
[1:36:12] the same thing and he'll do it a lot
[1:36:13] better.
[1:36:15] Um so
[1:36:18] the thing about the five sense
[1:36:20] consciousness is although their mode of
[1:36:21] perception can be direct when mind is
[1:36:22] not involved and so they have access to
[1:36:24] phenomenal suchness
[1:36:27] their moral nature can be wholesome unh
[1:36:29] wholesome or indeterminate.
[1:36:43] So what does that mean? Um
[1:36:46] when they operate without the
[1:36:48] intervention of mind consciousness, it
[1:36:49] is indeterminate. They are it's just
[1:36:52] what it is. With mind consciousness,
[1:36:55] basically um it kind of depends what
[1:36:59] you're looking at, right? Whether it's
[1:37:01] wholesome or unh wholesome and what you
[1:37:03] make of it with your mind.
[1:37:07] So, um, it's not only what you're
[1:37:11] looking at, but the way of looking at it
[1:37:14] and what you think about it and whether
[1:37:15] you get addicted to it or attached to
[1:37:17] it, whether you hate it, whether you
[1:37:18] love it, what your mind, what stories
[1:37:22] your mind makes up about it. And it can
[1:37:24] either be and wholesome wholesome and
[1:37:26] wholesome unh wholesome is not also
[1:37:29] moral is a bit misleading because it
[1:37:30] sounds like it's some kind of absolute
[1:37:32] like there are good things and there are
[1:37:34] bad things. That's not really the lens.
[1:37:36] The lens here is is it helpful or
[1:37:38] unhelpful.
[1:37:40] So this question of the mind operating
[1:37:44] with the five sense consciousnesses in
[1:37:46] is in a sense dealt with in the five
[1:37:48] mindfulness trainings and particularly
[1:37:50] the fifth mindfulness training which
[1:37:52] some of you received this morning which
[1:37:54] is about what we choose to consume
[1:37:57] whether it is helpful or unhelpful
[1:38:00] beneficial or unbeneficial.
[1:38:03] Then we have mind the sixth
[1:38:06] consciousness and the realm the of
[1:38:09] activity of the sixth is is the largest
[1:38:12] because it can operate in the mode of
[1:38:15] direct perception although it is rare
[1:38:18] and it takes training.
[1:38:21] It can operate in the mode of inference
[1:38:24] and deduction which is what we usually
[1:38:27] do. It can also operate in the mode of
[1:38:30] fallacy. wrong inference or wrong
[1:38:33] intuition.
[1:38:35] Um, and it does have access to suchness,
[1:38:40] although it is also somewhat rare. It
[1:38:44] has access obviously to the realm of
[1:38:46] representations because that's usually
[1:38:47] where it hangs out. And it has access to
[1:38:50] the realm of m images. We can imagine
[1:38:53] things and visualize things. And that's
[1:38:55] very cool.
[1:38:57] And it also
[1:39:00] can be wholesome,
[1:39:04] unh wholesome
[1:39:06] or indeterminate. So it's it's its realm
[1:39:10] of activity is the greatest. It has
[1:39:12] access to everything.
[1:39:15] But mostly we use it in the mode of
[1:39:18] inference, in the realm of
[1:39:20] representation
[1:39:22] and well wholesome, unh wholesome, I
[1:39:25] don't know. That's up to you.
[1:39:29] So,
[1:39:32] does that help?
[1:39:34] I don't know. Maybe it does, maybe it
[1:39:36] doesn't. Maybe it just makes it worse,
[1:39:39] right? Could just confuse you.
[1:39:42] So, um
[1:39:52] let's enjoy sound of the bell.
[1:40:11] [Music]
[1:40:31] So, we have to treat all of this with a
[1:40:34] little bit of care because as I've said
[1:40:36] before and I will keep on saying it, it
[1:40:38] does start to look a little bit like a
[1:40:41] description of the nature of reality.
[1:40:42] But remember, it is only intended as a
[1:40:44] map to help us navigate the problem of
[1:40:48] suffering in our experience as it
[1:40:51] arises. So it can maybe sometimes help
[1:40:54] us to know where we are and what we're
[1:40:56] up to and what's operating and maybe how
[1:40:59] to practice to move from one way of
[1:41:03] perceiving to another way of perceiving.
[1:41:07] Um
[1:41:15] there's so much more we could say
[1:41:20] but in the uh let's just talk about
[1:41:22] imagination.
[1:41:30] So Tai Tai said something very
[1:41:31] interesting which is that we need
[1:41:34] we need our imagination and we need our
[1:41:38] visualization
[1:41:42] um to help manas the seventh
[1:41:45] consciousness to to let go to help it
[1:41:48] start to make this trip into the
[1:41:54] uh to to to help it to let go of seeing
[1:41:56] things in terms of separateness seeing
[1:41:57] things in terms of self.
[1:42:03] So what can we do?
[1:42:08] It's interesting because in theory like
[1:42:11] imagination is in the realm of mere
[1:42:12] images. It's supposed to be sort of not
[1:42:15] real, right? But that's actually a habit
[1:42:18] of thought that arises on the basis of
[1:42:21] scientific materialism.
[1:42:24] Okay? Because we have a tendency to
[1:42:26] think that this is real, right? Reality
[1:42:31] is matter. It is external. It is, you
[1:42:34] know,
[1:42:35] physical and temporal.
[1:42:38] But that's just an assumption.
[1:42:41] In the realm of experience, why is an
[1:42:44] image not real?
[1:42:48] It's your experience. It's in the
[1:42:50] present moment. It's part of experience.
[1:42:55] So it isn't not real.
[1:42:58] That's just a a habit. It's a hangover
[1:43:01] of uh scientific materialism.
[1:43:05] So um
[1:43:07] this is what confused me when I asked
[1:43:09] Tai the question about if you've never
[1:43:11] seen an orange tree, can you you look at
[1:43:14] an orange, can you see the tree?
[1:43:17] And then Tai said, "Keep practicing."
[1:43:23] So
[1:43:24] I asked the question unconsciously
[1:43:28] in terms of scientific materialism
[1:43:30] because I thought there is an orange
[1:43:33] now. It came from a tree then somewhere
[1:43:35] which I may or may not have seen but it
[1:43:37] is separately existent
[1:43:40] right
[1:43:41] and not accessible to my mind unless I'm
[1:43:45] looking straight at it.
[1:43:48] Are you sure?
[1:43:52] Right. If if it's something more like
[1:43:55] store consciousness
[1:43:57] where everything is the arising of the
[1:44:01] manifesting of seeds from the ground of
[1:44:06] store manifesting simultaneously in
[1:44:09] terms of subject and object of
[1:44:11] perception,
[1:44:13] right? Then those seeds at the level of
[1:44:15] store are not in space. And they're not
[1:44:20] in time. They're not subject to birth or
[1:44:23] death, creation or destruction.
[1:44:27] It is always there potential.
[1:44:32] So what if mind could just reach
[1:44:34] directly into store
[1:44:40] with imagination?
[1:44:42] Sometimes we appear to be there is there
[1:44:44] are two kinds of uh um mere image. One
[1:44:48] is with substance and one is without
[1:44:50] substance. This is in the teaching. So
[1:44:52] with substance is based on a thing that
[1:44:55] we have seen and experienced in waking
[1:44:58] normal waking consciousness. And without
[1:45:00] substance is seems to be a kind of
[1:45:02] creation of the mind. So let's say you
[1:45:05] see in your dream a flying elephant.
[1:45:08] You've combined two images and you've
[1:45:10] made a new image. And of obviously a lot
[1:45:12] of art and literature is
[1:45:15] is wonderful and beautiful because we
[1:45:17] can seemingly create
[1:45:20] new things with our imagination. I also
[1:45:24] want to say the English language is a
[1:45:26] little bit um unhelpful in this realm
[1:45:28] because it gives us only visualization
[1:45:31] because we are a little bit obsessed
[1:45:34] with seeing
[1:45:36] and we don't have a word for the same
[1:45:39] thing but with hearing. So I I call it
[1:45:42] aization
[1:45:44] and this is what composers do. You hear
[1:45:46] things
[1:45:49] in this realm.
[1:45:52] But if you're a dancer, maybe you have a
[1:45:56] kinesthetization,
[1:45:58] right? Or proprioceptization
[1:46:01] in motion.
[1:46:03] It's also a kind of imagination, but
[1:46:05] it's not an image. It's a maybe a felt
[1:46:06] sense. Then you can imagine the felt
[1:46:08] sense of moving through that sequence.
[1:46:13] Right? If you're a chef, you have
[1:46:16] gustatorization.
[1:46:18] You could probably find a better word,
[1:46:20] but it's like uh you can you can imagine
[1:46:24] before you've made it like a new
[1:46:26] combination of ingredients.
[1:46:30] If you're a perfume, you can do it with
[1:46:33] with smells. Or if you're if you work
[1:46:35] with essential oils, you can imagine new
[1:46:37] combinations of essential oils. You can
[1:46:40] smell them before you've smelled them.
[1:46:41] It's kind of wild.
[1:46:45] al factorization,
[1:46:47] right? So maybe we need some new words.
[1:46:51] Um,
[1:46:57] obviously artists make use of
[1:46:59] imagination a lot, but I think
[1:47:00] scientists do too, right? Because
[1:47:02] there's many many things that we study
[1:47:04] in science that we can't see directly.
[1:47:07] If you're if you're studying um particle
[1:47:10] physics,
[1:47:12] most of what you study you can never see
[1:47:14] or touch, right? But you use imagination
[1:47:17] to visualize it
[1:47:19] and then imagine the interactions
[1:47:23] and and that is wonderful and necessary.
[1:47:27] Um
[1:47:29] in the practice as a yogi or as a
[1:47:31] meditator, we also make use of
[1:47:34] visualization. We do it a lot.
[1:47:38] And maybe we are learning to
[1:47:42] communicate more directly with this
[1:47:45] ocean of potential.
[1:47:50] So let's say we're going to go for
[1:47:52] walking meditation.
[1:47:55] You can visualize and you can walk with
[1:47:58] your mother's feet.
[1:48:01] You can say
[1:48:06] And yeah, it's a little bit of
[1:48:08] visualization,
[1:48:10] but it becomes very real.
[1:48:14] So we use our visualization, our
[1:48:16] imagination to shatter the illusion of
[1:48:20] our separateness.
[1:48:23] You can invite your mother,
[1:48:26] your father,
[1:48:29] all your ancestors,
[1:48:31] your teachers.
[1:48:35] You walk as a multitude.
[1:48:38] This is something you can experience. So
[1:48:39] it's yes a little bit imagination but
[1:48:42] you start to practice it becomes very
[1:48:45] real. something you can feel
[1:48:50] and it helps manas to let go
[1:48:56] and there's many many many such
[1:48:59] practices
[1:49:02] um in the uh Mahayana Buddhist
[1:49:05] literature there are some sutras that go
[1:49:08] very far into this the avatam saka sutra
[1:49:10] the Lotus sutra they are really trippy
[1:49:14] you know It's like you sit on the
[1:49:18] lotus flower of a thousand petals and in
[1:49:21] each petal there's another flower of a
[1:49:23] thousand petals and in each petal of the
[1:49:25] thousand petals there's another you know
[1:49:26] it's like you know fractal madness.
[1:49:35] So it's partly visualization but it's
[1:49:37] visualization which gives us access
[1:49:39] gives us freedom from the apparent
[1:49:42] uh solidity and separateness of things
[1:49:47] that that manas perceives in terms of.
[1:49:54] So I had trouble when I first
[1:49:55] encountered this business of seeds and
[1:49:57] store because I immediately and I think
[1:49:58] I said this the other day I went about
[1:50:00] trying to locate it saying okay fine so
[1:50:02] if you're saying that's the ultimate
[1:50:04] nature of reality then where is it how
[1:50:06] can I touch it can we measure it
[1:50:10] wrong questions
[1:50:16] so maybe a better thought is like how
[1:50:18] can I how can I leave it alone how can I
[1:50:21] not grasp it with my concepts
[1:50:24] It makes us as teachers a little bit
[1:50:26] hesitant to say anything about it
[1:50:28] because whatever we say we know is not
[1:50:30] it.
[1:50:32] Nevertheless, I'm going to say something
[1:50:35] and maybe it's helpful, maybe it's not.
[1:50:37] So I'm I'm a musician
[1:50:39] and I sometimes like to think in terms
[1:50:41] of music. So, I could take a piece of
[1:50:45] music that I love, let's say, you know,
[1:50:47] a Mozart string quintet, and you could
[1:50:49] choose a song that you like or, you
[1:50:51] know, something that means something to
[1:50:52] you. And you ask yourself, um, so let's
[1:50:57] take this or maybe something more
[1:50:59] universal like, I don't know, uh,
[1:51:01] Beethoven's fifth symphony. Does
[1:51:03] everybody know that? D
[1:51:12] and so on. Right? You know that one.
[1:51:15] Um,
[1:51:18] between performances,
[1:51:20] where is it?
[1:51:24] Okay, so the Berlin Filarmonic just
[1:51:26] played it. Vienna Filmonic is going to
[1:51:28] play it next week. Where is it now?
[1:51:33] Does it exist?
[1:51:35] Does it not exist?
[1:51:38] Collective consciousness.
[1:51:40] Is it in collective consciousness?
[1:51:42] Partly
[1:51:47] before wrote it.
[1:51:51] Where was it?
[1:51:56] Did it exist?
[1:51:59] Did it not exist?
[1:52:01] Right?
[1:52:04] Maybe the terms of the question are
[1:52:06] misleading
[1:52:08] because we tend to think in terms of
[1:52:09] existence or non-existence.
[1:52:14] But let's just suppose that
[1:52:18] for the sake of argument there was a big
[1:52:21] bang.
[1:52:23] I don't know if there was or not, right?
[1:52:26] And I think astrophysicists are actually
[1:52:28] increasingly unsure.
[1:52:31] There was a time when that was the
[1:52:32] consensus. You know, still somewhat the
[1:52:35] consensus, but there are some competing
[1:52:37] theories, competing interpretations of
[1:52:40] the observations. It's not necessarily
[1:52:42] clear, but let's suppose that there was
[1:52:45] there's a big bang which implies space,
[1:52:48] time, and I would say consciousness. Not
[1:52:51] everybody would agree, but let's say you
[1:52:53] have space, time, and consciousness.
[1:52:56] So, you forget about the big bang.
[1:52:57] Doesn't matter.
[1:52:59] Once you have space, time and
[1:53:01] consciousness, all kinds of things are
[1:53:03] possible,
[1:53:05] right? Including the note B flat,
[1:53:09] right? The note B flat is suddenly a
[1:53:12] possible vibration of space,
[1:53:16] right? The note B flat including all its
[1:53:19] harmonics. B flat an octave above, two
[1:53:21] octaves above, three octaves above, an
[1:53:23] octave and a fifth, right? an octave and
[1:53:25] a two octaves and a third and a fifth
[1:53:27] and a minor 7th and so on. Right? All
[1:53:29] the harmonics are possible vibrations of
[1:53:32] a of a of a space
[1:53:36] of air or matter or string or whatever
[1:53:40] it might be.
[1:53:42] Once once you have space, time and
[1:53:44] consciousness, that frequency is
[1:53:47] possible. Double that frequency is
[1:53:49] possible, triple that frequency as
[1:53:51] possible. They're all possible.
[1:53:53] So by extension Beethoven's fifth
[1:53:56] symphony is possible
[1:53:59] right once you have spacetime and
[1:54:00] conscious it's possible it's possible to
[1:54:02] assemble those frequencies in that order
[1:54:06] in with those harmonies
[1:54:09] with those tambas
[1:54:11] it is possible.
[1:54:14] So what if there is a space of all the
[1:54:17] possible possibles,
[1:54:21] right? Including pieces of music,
[1:54:22] including human beings, including
[1:54:24] feelings, including mountains and
[1:54:26] galaxies and dew drops. All the possible
[1:54:29] possibles are possible,
[1:54:33] right? Some of them are manifest.
[1:54:36] They're all possible.
[1:54:39] and as possible possibles.
[1:54:44] Let's come back to Beethoven's fifth
[1:54:46] between the two performances between
[1:54:48] Berlin Phil and Vienna.
[1:54:52] Where is it?
[1:54:54] Nobody's playing it. Maybe nobody even
[1:54:57] playing a recording. That's probably
[1:54:59] quite unusual these days, but say all
[1:55:02] the CD players, all the,
[1:55:04] you know, suddenly maybe Spotify deletes
[1:55:08] it accidentally,
[1:55:11] goes off all the playlist, nobody's
[1:55:12] playing it, nobody's listening to it.
[1:55:14] Where is it?
[1:55:18] Did it disappear? Did it go away? No,
[1:55:21] it's still possible.
[1:55:23] It's just not manifest, but it's
[1:55:24] possible. It didn't die. Didn't go away.
[1:55:28] Because the possible, the potential
[1:55:32] cannot be destroyed. Nobody can touch
[1:55:35] it.
[1:55:37] Ty used to use the example of a flame.
[1:55:39] He would light a match and then the
[1:55:41] match would go out.
[1:55:44] But when the flame is extinguished, are
[1:55:48] flames no longer possible?
[1:55:50] Is that the end of all flames? No.
[1:55:52] They're still possible. They're just not
[1:55:55] manifest.
[1:55:58] Right? But if you're a chemist, you know
[1:56:00] very well that a flame is just a kind of
[1:56:04] dynamical system, right? Of some kind of
[1:56:08] fuel
[1:56:09] with oxygen combusting in an exothermic
[1:56:13] reaction.
[1:56:15] The kind of dynamic
[1:56:17] exothermic reaction that draws in
[1:56:21] the oxygen it needs to to continue.
[1:56:24] It's it's a dynamical system and as a
[1:56:26] dynamical system it is always possible.
[1:56:30] So in the realm of the possible nothing
[1:56:33] is created nothing is destroyed.
[1:56:40] There is no time,
[1:56:43] no locality,
[1:56:46] no coming or going.
[1:56:50] No same, no different.
[1:56:53] Just all the possible possible possibles
[1:56:57] all simultaneously
[1:56:59] sort of vibrating. Maybe it's a realm of
[1:57:03] frequency.
[1:57:07] A field. We like to think about fields.
[1:57:10] Usually we think of physical fields. So
[1:57:12] fields instantiated in space and time.
[1:57:15] So like an electromagnetic field or a
[1:57:20] field of charge or a field of magnetic
[1:57:24] charge.
[1:57:26] And then we have quantum fields which
[1:57:27] are not physical fields, right? They're
[1:57:29] fields of probability which may be a
[1:57:31] little bit closer.
[1:57:36] This is a field of all the fields,
[1:57:40] not in space, not in time.
[1:57:43] It really sounds like metaphysics. This
[1:57:46] is why I
[1:57:47] should keep my mouth shut.
[1:57:50] So, I just say it uh in the hope that it
[1:57:54] might point in the direction
[1:57:58] of a of a kind of experience of freedom
[1:58:01] of non-fear
[1:58:04] because you and I are like Beethoven's
[1:58:08] fifth symphony.
[1:58:10] As soon as there was spaceime and
[1:58:11] consciousness, we were also possible and
[1:58:13] we were always possible. We will always
[1:58:15] be possible
[1:58:20] and there is no separate we right so
[1:58:23] possible also in all our multiple
[1:58:27] interactions
[1:58:28] because maybe it's in the interactions
[1:58:30] that are more the space of the possible
[1:58:33] than the apparent separate entities
[1:58:35] which Manis invents.
[1:58:41] So you can even think of the possible as
[1:58:42] being in the in what lies between us,
[1:58:46] the realm of relationships.
[1:58:49] And what is Beethoven's fifth symphony
[1:58:51] if not a complex of relationships of
[1:58:54] sound.
[1:58:58] It's not really an entity. It's not a
[1:59:00] thing. It's also a relationship of your
[1:59:02] consciousness to it.
[1:59:06] Without the listener, there's no
[1:59:08] symphony.
[1:59:12] So I just propose this
[1:59:15] as a as a an instrument of imagination.
[1:59:19] Okay? I'm not describing reality.
[1:59:23] I'm just saying we can use our
[1:59:25] imagination
[1:59:27] to kind of visualize this vast space.
[1:59:30] Sometimes it one point I I visualized it
[1:59:34] as a giant it's like a giant cathedral
[1:59:37] with all these tuning forks hanging
[1:59:42] all possible frequencies
[1:59:45] and life is a kind of dance
[1:59:49] brushing against all these different
[1:59:51] tuning forks and they resonate and they
[1:59:52] cause each other to resonate and the
[1:59:54] patterns of resonance ripple out and
[1:59:56] interact. And there's other
[2:00:00] resonances and dances happening at the
[2:00:02] same time. And they all and it's this
[2:00:04] vast music of us
[2:00:10] not subject to birth and death always
[2:00:13] possible.
[2:00:24] I wrote something down here. I have no
[2:00:26] idea what it says.
[2:00:27] Okay, that's a sign
[2:00:32] enough.
[2:00:38] So, let's not take any of this too
[2:00:40] seriously. Let's not hold on to it too
[2:00:43] tight. Let's not make more theories out
[2:00:46] of it. Even though we love making
[2:00:48] theories
[2:00:49] and any theories we appear to have, you
[2:00:52] can just also let those go too.
[2:00:56] And I invite you to see what you can
[2:00:58] experience.
[2:01:00] How maybe you can use some of these
[2:01:02] notions to also challenge the categories
[2:01:05] of experience that appear to you in the
[2:01:09] mind and the questions that arise based
[2:01:11] on those
[2:01:13] categories. As soon as you think, oh, I
[2:01:15] need to ask brother Fablin a question.
[2:01:18] Check.
[2:01:20] Right? Are you thinking in terms of
[2:01:22] self?
[2:01:24] Are you thinking in terms of permanence?
[2:01:28] Right? Are you thinking in terms of
[2:01:29] separateness? Are you thinking in terms
[2:01:31] of dualism?
[2:01:34] You do a quick check and like, oh yeah,
[2:01:35] okay, I don't need to ask.
[2:01:40] We'll save a lot of time.
[2:01:47] Let's enjoy three sounds of the bell.
[2:02:04] [Music]
[2:02:15] [Music]
[2:02:40] [Music]
[2:03:07] [Music]